Mon 26 Feb 2007

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17 Responses to “ The importance of Cantonese in Hong Kong ”

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1. 喵喵怪 says:
   February 27th, 2007 at 1:31 am

   Actually you dont need to care so much about ppl saying, if you think it is right, then just do it.. I have told my fen a few years before, If she love playing squash and would like to be one of the world top player, let do it and insist on it.. She can do that finally and just now she tell me that she got a runner-up in one of the world events… It was amazing!! Where there is a will there is a way! (有志者事竟成) I hope I type it correctly!! !!

2. Edwin says:
   February 27th, 2007 at 2:42 am

   Milan,
   I think I can relate to your feeling, but on the flip side. Here in Toronto, the Chinese immigrants don’t need to speak English if they don’t want to. They can go to Chinese supermarkets, watch Chinese channels, find a job in the Chinese malls, and even call customer services provided in Chinese.

   I personally know a lot of friends who are like this. They still speak English, but only minimal, usually at their work place. And I know many colleagues from HK/China who are very talented, but never get promoted because of their bad English. There is nothing wrong with bad English. It is just that they never have the desire to improve it.

   I feel so sad about this, especially when I see so many people in Skype from other countries who have the deep desire to improve their English, only that they have no chance. But those who live in an English speaking country have no desire to improve it!

3. Simon says:
   February 27th, 2007 at 8:34 am

   I think that the person who said you were obsessed with Cantonese, hit the nail right on the head.

   Don’t get me wrong, I am totally in agreement with you when you say that the nob-chinese in Hong Kong should take time to try and learn to speak the local dialect (not language). However, it seems wih you that it has become an obsession and you are simply focusing on your inabilty to speak the dialect fluently as a excuse for not being able to find a job in Hong Kong.

   One thing you should learn from the begining if you haven’t already is that you to are a 鬼佬 gwai2 lou2. So don’t go using this dehumanising term to describe white guys, when you are one too!

   Just because you speak a little bit of the local dialect it does not give you the right to label your fellow mankind in a demeaning manner like may other honkies do. You of all people being a Serb should realise the consequences of idle racial slurs. Remember you are NOT Chinese.

   Relax and chill out a bit and mix with your own type, networking after all is one way postive to help ou find a job in Hong Kong. If you are going to walk around with the attitude that you are the only “European” who has has learn Cantonese, then you need to learn a lot more!

4. wai ming says:
   February 27th, 2007 at 10:49 am

   Woah, I think someone took Milan’s reference to *other people’s* use of 鬼佬 a bit too personally. Yes, Milan is a bit obsessive about learning Cantonese and integrating into HK society, but is that really such a bad thing? Surely it’s better than perpetuating the “us vs them” mentality as evidenced by those who label everyone by ethnicity and race…

   Anyway, I agree with 喵喵怪: if you think something is right, just do it. As nice as it would be if everyone could understand you, that will never be the case, because most people *aren’t* in your position. Only you know what you need to do in your position.

   On the other hand, I think there should be a distinction between taking something seriously (or being “obsessive” about something) and having fun doing it. It’s definitely harder to learn a language (and let’s not get into the dialect vs language debate) when you put pressure on yourself to be “perfect”. Learning a language doesn’t have to be a chore. It can be fun, too

   Anyway, Milan, you know you’ve made a lot of progress with your Cantonese. Don’t be discouraged by what other people say

5. Tom says:
   February 27th, 2007 at 9:31 pm

   Milan

   Nothing wrong with obsession in my eyes, it’s the way to achieve greatness is so many things. Expanding on what 喵喵怪 said, what sports star achieved their success without damn hard work and countless setbacks.

   Now, for finding a job, you seem to have a very different attitude, too put off by set backs. If you dedicated as much time to finding a job as you did in studying Cantonese, I think you’d have one suitable by now. Have you gone through recruitment/placement agencies? Even ones from Aus may be willing to do the work to contact companies on your behalf. Then there is just going through directories of big companies, international ones ideally, and contacting the HR department directly. Expats do tend to be older, more experienced because that is where the shortage of talent is greatest. However, I work at an international company and there are a number of foreigners who joined with under 5 years of experience and not through a transfer

   Good luck!

6. Marcelo Brasil says:
   February 27th, 2007 at 10:35 pm

   Hello Milan,

   It seems that you are referring to me,so I think I should make some remarks about what you wrote. When I used the word the word ‘obsessed’ I wanted to say that you are extremelly eager to learn Cantonese and have an avidness to learn as fast as possible. I think I misused this word. I didn’t want to make it sound a derogatory comment.
   As for the rest of what you wrote, you definitly misunderstood me. When I said that one should have fun while learning a language, it doesen’t mean that you should not take it seriously. I only think that learning a language should be enjoyable, even though there are many boring moments, when you have to sit down and listen to the same thing over and over dozens of times or do boring exercises, overall speaking it is very pleasant ( at least for me).
   And with regard to ” Cantonese shouldn’t be as important in comparison to English in Hong Kong
   ” did I really say that ? I remember I said that languages like Spanish or Mandarin are much more useful and I only said that because I thought you were going to stay here for a short period of time. After all, if you don’t have fun learning Cantonese, why to come all the way from Australia and study it so very hard?
   However,as you said before, you are going to settle down here for a long period of time , therefore, fluent Cantonese is indispensable for you to get a good job. So you are absolutely right in being so perseverant. I just hope you can get some satisfaction in this process.

7. Richard says:
   February 28th, 2007 at 3:27 pm

   If someone called you obsessed you might take it the wrong way. However if someone used the word passionate you might take it as a compliment. See how powerful the English language can be?

   I believe you are passionate in learning Cantonese based on the way you write, learn, speak etc. The reasons why you are passionate is due to the requirement for you to speak Cantonese - ie. survival. However perhaps survival is not the right word here. More like you want to produce a comfortable living for yourself and your family within the environment of H.K.

   You are already in H.K. living and breathing the culture. You are interacting with the local people and engaging in their recreational pursuits. You have a job that you get paid so you can buy food, etc. At this point in time most people will point out that you have reached your objective. However, from what i gather this is not enough. You require a professionally paid job where the language requirement for Cantonese is quite high. You intend to raise a family and acquire property in H.K. To achieve this in a short time frame will require serious work and that is where your passion and motivation and determination comes into it.

   Hey, I’d be happy living in a studio apartment overlooking the back alleys of H.K. and earning a small wage if i could live and be a part of the culture of H.K. and the Cantonese people. But that’s me.

   Richard.

8. Shon says:
   March 2nd, 2007 at 7:06 am

   I have a “white friend” well educated that left his well paying federal job, sold his house and all his posessions and moved to Hong Kong thinking he would have no trouble finding a job> His wife is Chinese, and he really wanted his kids to have good exposure to the language.

   In fact…he speaks fluent Cantonese and can read and write Chinese…he even appeared as the “adopted Caucasian” son of a Chinese family in a TVB series while he was a student at China University in Hong Kong in the late 90s. After two years of living in Hong Kong with his family, his savings is exhausted, and he is returning to the states. He has spent his whole time teaching English, and while the money is good, it isn’t what he wants to do with the rest of his life.

   Don’t get me wrong…learning the language is important, extremely valuable…but it aint everything. Racism can be a pretty “in yoru face” kind of thing in Hong Kong…and the job market isn’t as great at it was in the mid 90s. In fact…instead of an overwhelming number of jobs, There is increased competition from locals. When jobs are tight…and it is “us against them”…it doesn’t matter what part of the world you live in, you get the short end of the stick if your the “them”.

   I aint trying to rain on your parade…I know many foreigners that are wealthy and happy living abroad. Almost all of them were hired by foreign companies first (like you pointed out) and sent there by their companies. This could be an “in” for you. I’m not trying to say you should stop learning Cantonese either. Any edge you can get is going to help.

   You could attempt to locate companies in New Zealand, Australia, etc. that are looking for people to work for them, and go abroad to Hong Kong. I know it seems backward…but interviewing abroad, just so you can stay where you are, might just be an option.

   I remember when I started my undergraduate studies, Computer Tech guys were getting 50k signing bonuses, and job offers a year before they graduated. By the time I had finished (along with many computer IT grads itching for those jobs) the well had dried up, and many people that had gotten offeres the previous year, were fired and handed a severence package before they even started.

   It isn’t just drive and motivation that gets the job…it’s where the market is at (which just took a major dive in Hong Kong this week ), what your personality is like, who you know, education, other talents,etc.

9. Betty Lam says:
   March 2nd, 2007 at 1:52 pm

   As long as your wife can understand you, that will be fine. That’s the reason you get married and come to Hong Kong.

10. Cryme says:
    March 9th, 2007 at 10:29 am

    Hi Milan,

    I can understand your frustration. Hong Kong people are rude enough to the locals… throw in the “foreigner” card and its double difficult to cope. My fiancee is Chinese with perfect Cantonese and even SHE doesn’t want to live in HK ever. But we did visit their recently and found it does has its charms though. I am surprised however that they treat you so poorly, being half chinese. I expect that behaviour towards me, a full gwai lou.

    But don’t get too discouraged. I have just accepted that people are ignorant and stupid all over the world. Just take it as a given and move on. Chinese ideals are very different than western/australian ideals. How do you think locals would react to you if you were living in Iran? Or Sudan? Or Japan? The same, I expect.

    In North America (and Australia I suppose) people are so politically correct that if anyone says any slightly racist comment, you just have to stare at them and say “What do you MEAN by that?” and they recant for fear of ostracization by society. But in Hong Kong, no one fears this. You feel like you’re in the twilight zone, being the only ’sane’ person around.

    Sometimes I wonder what it would be like to look for a permanent job in Hong Kong. Fortunately, or perhaps unfortunately, as a physicist, everything is done in English as a standard. But I imagine living there I’d have the same frustrations.

    Keep up the studying! Don’t let all the comments get you down! Just try to move on.

    Ryan

11. domanlai says:
    March 9th, 2007 at 7:46 pm

    I think that living in an alien environment often incurs some frustrations. The differences make the whole experience somtimes charming & exciting but also hard to endure in some cases.

    I always pointed out that Chinese in general may show apparently not welcoming behaviour towards foreigners.

    But I think it would be unfair not to ponder the whys and hows of such a reaction. It is just that Chinese have a different mentality and experienced a different modern history as far as contacts with foreigners are concerned. So I think discrimination is something new to most of them. And in some case what western people may consider as discimination is not from the point of view of a Chinese.

    Well, as hard as it might be, it is probably good not to forget that it is not only important to speak the language but also to understand people behaviour if one wants to merge in the local society.

    入鄉隨俗

    Anyway the reports are very interesting.
    Wish you good luck in your job hunt and cantonese learning !

12. Decker says:
    March 28th, 2007 at 9:10 am

    Hi!

    I thought I might share my experience with you.

    I’m caucassian, born in Montreal - Canada. By an interesting sets of circumstances, by the end of high school most if not all my friends turned out to be chinese.

    (Simply said, my best friend at the end of primary school was chinese, we were always together, when we went to high school, he introduced me to other chinese friends.. and since chinese people tend to stick with chinese people… henceforth the above mention result)

    At that time (early 90) in Montreal, most chinese people spoke cantonese, so I ended up having regular contacts with this language. Of course, from chinese friends perspective, no one had the patience to teach me this “tonal” language that I was picking up very slowly. I’m not blaming them, having been brought up using this language they simply had no idea of what the “tones” were.. and making me repeat words over and over untill I finally got them right.. was a pain.

    So, by another set of circumstances.. (life does seem to set things up somewhat) I ended meeting someone who accepted to teach me cantonese on a regular basis. And that’s how I started learning cantonese.

    Learned for many years in a non-favorable language environment. We speak english and french in Montreal. And the time I spent with my chinese friends compared to family, school and later work environment just didn’t add up.

    I took cantonese as my hobby and I never stressed up about it untill I actually started learning mandarin in Uni.

    At that time I realized that structured learning, if constant, give amazing results. And later on, having had the chance to live 1 year in Northern China, I found out how a suitable language environment do wonders for learning.

    By the time I came back to my hometown in 2005, Chinese had became a passion.

    While I was in China, I did my best to keep my cantonese going, which was not that easy a thing. At that time, many people wondered why I was so attached to cantonese… it’s just a chinese dialect. It was best, in their views, that I focussed on the mandarin and just forget about cantonese.

    That’s something I couldn’t. I’ve grown up with cantonese, with HK singers and actors.. with friends who spoke the language. I just couldn’t let it go. I have an attachment to the language and that’s that.

    Unfortunately, I never went to HK or even to GuangDong.. .I’m dreaming to go there one day and see how the language environment would work on improving my level of cantonese. But, that’s for a later time.

    Meanwhile.. even though I have been with chinese people since forever, I found out it was a lot easier to be alongside chinese while I was in China. Somewhat, in Tianjin, the city I was while in China, people were very supportive of this white guy learning chinese.

    But in my hometown, many chinese people find it weird. “How come this guy is always with chinese people, is he some kind of chinese wannabe?” “Why does he want to improve his chinese so much? Why is he so obsessed?”

    Well.. I can say that I’ve grown up alongside chinese friends and being with chinese is natural to me. As for the language, I love it. And love doesn’t need any reasons.

    Now that I’m back home, it’s really hard to protect my current chinese level and even harder to make it progress. But I’ll never give up. And where there are people who don’t give a damn, who think I’m over doing it or that simply cannot understand my special relationship with chinese language. There are also people who find it intriguing, who are curious and who are supportive of my efforts.

    The difficulties of learning the language, I’ve met. The intercultural differences and problems that come from them, I’ve experienced.

    All in all, people are people. Some will go with u, some against u and some will ignore u. That’s just the way people are. Up to us to focus on the one that go with us and ignore the rest.

    Chinese is a darn hard language to learn. Cantonese even more so than mandarin (more tones.. not a strong pin yin system, bigger difference in oral and read chinese pronounciation..just to name a few) but with hard work and dedication, even in not the best language environment, it’s possible to learn it well enough to communicate.

    So, if you like cantonese.. or if like me, you have a passion for the language.

    Don’t give up. No matter what.

13. Khatzumoto says:
    December 25th, 2007 at 10:50 pm

    >It’s Cantonese or nothing. I don’t care if its convenient to use English because you studied for 20+ years. I’m not going to end up like those lazy expats who speak English everyday for 5-6 years in Hong Kong and suddenly wake up by learning some Chinese.

    I really admire your drive. No matter what happens between now and then, you’ll get there…in a sense, you already are there and the rest is just a formality. Keep on keeping on!

14. 老鬼佬 says:
    September 28th, 2008 at 1:03 pm

    祝你成功﹗

15. Watermelon says:
    August 22nd, 2009 at 8:04 pm

    I found this website just aimlessly surfing the net, and I’m so glad I did. Your dedication to actively learning Cantonese is nothing short of inspirational.

    I am a CBC who moved to Hong Kong 5 years ago to get married to a native Hong Konger. It’s been a tough adjustment, not only in the language, but also the local culture, as my job nature requires a good understanding of both. At times the slow progress is frustrating, because others don’t seem to see that underneath the ethic Chinese features and the acceptable pronunciation, I’m still lacking total understanding.

    Keep up the good work, and continue with your passion.

16. samuel welsh says:
    June 25th, 2010 at 11:44 am

    cantonese is a beautiful language

17. Nico says:
    July 20th, 2011 at 11:10 pm

    I feel like I am in the same situation- Its Cantonese or nothing. I think what you are doing is very admirable. My grasp on cantonese is slipping fast and i’m realising that if I don’t keep it up, I will have great difficulty finding a job here after I graduate. After reading your post, I have renewed confidence to step out of my shell and talk in my broken cantonese to the locals. It doesn’t matter, they say, practice makes perfect! All I can say is- Good Luck and all the best with your cantonese learning!

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